Allen and Dan discuss Japan’s plan to add 10GW of power in the next 10 years, new wind turbines in India from Siemens Gamesa Renewable energy, and how marine life may be impacted by offshore wind turbines. In segment two, Allen goes into detail on electrical bonding issues in the lightning protection systems of wind turbines.
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Full Transcript: EP17 A Great Quarter for Wind Capacity; Electrical Bonding Issues with Wind Turbines
Dan: This episode is brought to you by Weather Guard Lightning Tech at Weather Guard, we make wind turbine lightning protection easy. If you’re a wind farm operator, stop settling for damaged turbine blades and constant downtime. Get your uptime back with our strike tape lightning protection system. Learn more in today’s show notes or visit weatherguardwind.com/striketape.
Allen Hall: Welcome back I’m Allen Hall.
Dan: I’m Dan Blewett. And this is the Uptime podcast where we talk about wind energy engineering, lightning protection, and ways to keep your wind turbines running.
All right, welcome back to uptime. This is episode 17, Allen. What’s going on.
Allen Hall: Hey, busy weekend wind, huh? Uh, a lot of, uh, good activity. You see some awakening a little bit on the wind side and, uh, it looks like Japan’s doing some good things trying to expand their, their wind infrastructure and Siemens Gamesa is making some inroads into India.
Great. This has been a, going to be a great week.
Dan: Yeah. So in today’s show, we’re going to cover a little bit on the, on the news side, like Allen mentioned, um, there’s been a good first quarter, uh, for the wind industry. Um, some expansion into India. We’re gonna talk about Japan a little bit and, um, kind of briefly.
Check on wildlife in the ocean. So there’s a new, um, good article came out about offshore wind and, uh, maybe some of the implications on ocean wildlife. Then we’re gonna talk a little bit about bonding and grounding, um, and some of the electrical issues that are posed, uh, by winter by Anson. I know Alan, you’ve had some questions recently with all that.
So we’ll cover that, uh, in the second half of our show today. So first thing on the docket, I mean, so good first quarter for wind. I’m so sorry, nearly 14 gigawatts of wind turbine capacity, Warbird order globally, which equates to an estimated 13 point $4 billion. So what do you, what do you see with all this?
I mean, that’s pretty exciting. I mean, this is becoming a, a pretty, uh, main stable in the, not that it hasn’t been, but. Things are looking up.
Allen Hall: Yeah, that’s a good number. Yeah, that’s a good number. Right? So one gigawatt equals $1 billion in sales. That’s what that says. That’s a great number because as we’ve talked about doing more and more gigawatts, that means a really big drivers of, of local economies.
And, uh, the, the, the places where, uh, especially as we’re seeing on the shorelines of inspo and around Europe, and now some Suzlon getting back on their feet again. That’s great for the world economy to have people working, which is what that says in order to have $13 billion of acts of sales means a lot of people are working.
That’s a good sign.
Dan: Yeah. Well, there’s a lot of capacity getting bought up by China. I mean, you look at some of the, the charts here and there just a, it looks like they’re getting more and more aggressive and Japan and Taiwan, uh, Orders for their projects accounted for 33% of the quarter, one global offshore wind turbine order intake and 42% of overall offshore demand in Asia.
So, yeah, and it looks like, uh, Vestus is a pretty, uh, a pretty big player on all that. So, yeah, they are, I mean, this is something that you just look at it and you’re like, why don’t we do more of this, especially in North America, especially in America. I mean, offshore in America is still really sparse, which seems strange.
Right?
Allen Hall: It does seem strange, but I just think the, in general, well, in general, not specifically, and in the Northern latitudes of Europe, The storm, the seas are pretty choppy. It’s scenic and well, it’s just, it’s just the discussion about, can you see it? And where do you think it’s an eyesore or not?
Dan: Yeah,
Allen Hall: in Europe, it’s not really an eyesore and America is still seen as an eyesore offshore drilling rigs have been an eyesore and California’s essentially banned a lot of them over time.
And until. Our attitudes change about them and see wind as being a definite sector in energy production, where you’re going to have these problems, unless he starts shoving the wind term far enough off shore, which I think is happening. Now, we’re talking about going further and further our shores particular with the floating platforms that maybe you can get them far enough away.
You really don’t even notice them. And then Americans won’t even care and we’ll be back making big wind, wind turbines offshore again. But for the M for the main part right now, it’s mostly on land sites, uh, mostly in the Midwest, Texas being the big driver in the United States right now.
Dan: Yeah. Well, let’s come back to that a little bit.
So as we were kind of talking about some of the nuisances potentially posed by off shore, so some big studies done about just the way Marine life is affected. Obviously there’s a lot of noise. There’s the constant, you know, Hum or drama or whatever, you’d call it from, you know, just wind turbines and operation.
Obviously all the sure. The installation, driving piles for some of these, uh, ones that are embedded into the, into the sea rock. And they’re trying to figure out is this negatively harming the wildlife? So like some of this is pretty inconclusive and it is good that, I mean, we need to obviously care for our planet and you don’t want renewable energy, which is meant to be at a benefit.
For the entire planet to be, you know, helping the human population, but just. Decimating the, the wildlife. So it sounds like it’s not too bad based on like preliminary measurements that maybe some of these animals are detecting sounds, but the scope of the overall, um, like noise profile and just like, I guess the density of the noise and the frequencies that.
They’re probably not too impactful. Is that kinda what you gathered from, uh, from some of these studies?
Allen Hall: Yeah, it, it, there’s a little bit of overlap in terms of the noise generated by the offshore wind turbines and how that cross into sort of frequency ranges in which, uh, Marine life are using. But I think from an engineer’s perspective, if we know what we’re up against on the design side, we can start mitigating those impacts.
And, but we need to get the data. Right. So the first part of any engineering adventure is you’re going to stumble onto some problem area because the technology had relatively is new and you’re looking in areas you never looked in before. We need to need to get the data. We’re not trying to be bad people and harm Marine life, just like we’re not trying to harm bats and birds.
Right. No one is trying to do that when they’re designing that winter roads. Yeah. What we’re trying to do is just learn from what we’ve got and then adapt and see if we can find a way to coexist. Right. And I, I do think. Um, as we go, I know there’s been a big push on some other things that are in the sea or trying to should have less impact on the Marine life.
We should do that for wind turbines. Why would wind terms be excluded from that? But I it’s just, it’s just not enough data, not really, not enough data to respond to yet.
Dan: Yeah. And when I think this is a classic example of somewhere where the, the principle of charity should be applied. Cause like you said, I think a lot of time activists and people who are, you know, a vouching for the Marine wildlife, they’re saying you’re doing this, you’re destroying like the bats you’re destroying.
Like we’re not trying to do that. Like we need to apply the principle of charity here. Like, look. No, one’s actively being malicious towards wildlife and you’re right. We just need to gather data and figure out what’s going on. Is it actually harming them the standard way that we’re installing these things?
And if not, and then, Hey, we’re open to maybe changing that, but you’re right. We just need to start with data first. And like I said, it sounds like, you know, the there’s sort of two main sources of noise, like the pile driving. Much, uh, that’s going to get deeper into the water. Like they’re going to hear that a lot more, but it’s also a short term.
Like it’s gonna, you know, once the piles are driven and that part of the installation is complete, then they move on and that’s not there anymore. So it’s a short term thing, but then. The operational noise, you know, up to 20 years longer impact
Allen Hall: right? Much longer impact. That’s the one you really want to try to mitigate as much as you can.
And my guess is that even on existing offshore wind turbines, as we get further and further out and to see, and it may become an issue. Mike, Mike. That is that we can probably modify those existing wind turbines, knowing what the data is to go ahead and make them a little quieter in those frequency ranges that Marine life like to use are used for communication and fine.
You know, I, I, I just, I just don’t like the spec, particularly the couple of articles that I’ve seen about this recently, where it does seem like the battle engineers or the battle wind turbine companies trying to kill the Marine life. No.
Dan: Yeah, no, one’s trying to do that. It’s just like, look, this is what it takes to install these and what they do, how they operate and yeah, you’re right.
Everyone just needs to, I think, come to the table and say, look, this is what we want. We want to keep everyone safe, including. The Marine life that can’t speak for themselves. And so what can we do to accomplish that? But yeah, I think,
Allen Hall: I think that let’s get to work you’re right. Engineers love problems, right.
This, get this, put it on the list, put on the list and work it.
Dan: And you’re right. Measuring, measuring it’s the first step, because if you don’t have a measurement for it, then we have no idea what we’re trying to even, even fix. Um, yeah. Yeah. So let’s, let’s switch back to onshore. So, uh, Siemens Gamesa, renewable energy.
They’re launching a new turbine and they love, uh, giving them these very technical names, the SG 3.4 dash one 45. And, uh, yeah. Right. And this one’s a 3.6 megawatt and. It can deliver 48% more and annual energy than its predecessor. The SG 2.2 dash one 22. So this one they said is tailored, uh, with the 145 meter rotor diameter.
Um, it’s pretty much tailored for that kind of those kinds of conditions in India. So, I mean, do you think this is a trend? Yeah. I mean, how much. How much can they really tailor for these environments? I mean, is wind not just wind, I guess is my question for you
Allen Hall: when does wind, but where you place, those wind turbines has a lot to do with how to maximize performance and a hot locations.
You just, every wind turbine generates a lot of heat on its own. You have to have, and they have cooling systems essentially. Keep it simplistic. They have cooling systems in them to maintain standard temperature. So the things can operate. And if you get in places where it’s extremely hot or just not enough, um, uh, humidity kind of plays into that too.
So there there’s, there’s some places on this planet where you have to be a little more aggressive about the way you control the temperature of the units to maximize performance. Not every winter is going to be designed as to same and also what the winds are. So you have this issue about. What kind of wins you’re typically seen in that country?
What are they in? Where are the, uh, corrosive environments where you’re likely to see? There is a lot of fine particles, sand, which tends to be very abrasive is, are extreme temperatures, extreme colds. So you’re not no longer just designing a generic wind turbine that you can ship anywhere in the world.
You’re designing wind turbines that are specific to those locations because. Ultimately, we’re trying to maximize a lifetime and we can’t do that. Producing generic. Wind turbines. It’s same thing as it’s in cars, right? Honda makes a car for Canada. That’s different than the car for America, which I’m sure is different than the car in Mexico or South America or Japan for that matter.
Uh, it’s the same thing for winter mugs. You need to take in. To consideration in the climate that it’s going to be in. And I think it’s one of the big downfalls. And we’ll talk about this later. The big downfall on wind term is right now is the lifetime. And how, uh, as being the lifetime of wind turbines is being compared to the lifetime to other energy sources like nuclear.
And I just saw a tweet today talking about a new advanced Russian nuclear sites that are going to be designed for a hundred years of lifetime. Well, that’s sorta hard to compete against. If you’re going to have to replace wind turbines five times over that hundred years, that’s not a good advertising focus, right?
We need to be able to do better than 20 years. And right now I think a lot of wind turbines, particularly the older ones are not going to quite make 20 years. It’s a big drawback on the industry. So we gotta start thinking about some of these other, other environmental impacts, uh, to get the lifetime up.
That’s what it means. Well,
Dan: as, so, I mean, 20 years is such a long period of time. I mean, you think about like the lifespan of technology for all of their sectors. Like what was a computer 20 years ago? Like, would you even want a computer for total? You know what I mean? And so obviously like
Allen Hall: airplanes.
Airplanes are 50 years old. A lot of airplanes are 50 years old or older than
Dan: 50 years old. Good counterexample. Alright. Alright. But I guess my point was
Allen Hall: cars, cars.
Dan: Do we want to replace them every 10 years? Like in 10 years? Is it better just to knock the thing down because now we have one the same size, cheaper costs.
That’s like 20 megawatts. 10, you know, 10 years in the future, maybe, maybe they just become obsolete as technology to speeds. Speeds. And zips ahead. I don’t know
Allen Hall: why there’s, there’s something. I think the airplane comparison is a valid comparison in a sense there’s we know a lot of biodynamics on wind turbine blades, and we know that they’re really efficient doing what they’re doing.
Where are the inefficiency comes, tends to be in the instrumentation. The communication, the efficiency may not be there and they could be retrofit. I think if we start thinking about each one being a retrofittable. Design so that we can modify it over time and improve it. Like if we did a software upgrade to a wind turbine and got another 3% of power, nobody will complain about that.
Nobody. If we had to add $10,000 to a wind turbine tank to increase another percent, we would totally do that. Um, so I think the airplane analogy is similar because that’s the way airplanes have been is that 50 year old airplanes, just get the guts, the guts of them and get changed out the engines don’t really change the shape of them.
Don’t really change, but all the electrical and systems do change and get improved over time. And what term it should be the same way because you’ve already made the investment. Why do you want to buy a whole new one? Probably don’t need it.
Dan: Yeah. Probably don’t need it. Yeah. No, that makes sense. That’s a, that is an interesting analogy because you’re right.
Like the blades, like you said, probably aren’t going to change that much. The towers, a lot of the costs that goes into is probably going to remain relatively constant. And I mean, they have for a while now, too, so.
Allen Hall: Okay. And the differential cost to operate in another year is probably relatively small at year 18, 1920.
And then, you know, if, if you’ve got that, if you already pretty much. Pay it off the thing. And the first couple of years, which tends to be what happens then all those other years are just pure profit. So why do you want to mess with that? It’s like going to the casino and knowing every, every 50th pole and that on the, on the slot machine is going to pay out.
I think I want to keep doing that if it’s gonna, if it’s gonna pay out. And when tournaments are kind of like that, they can be just pure money generation machines. As long as the maintenance, operational costs are controlled. They’ll, they will live those things forever. Um, so we’ll see. Yeah, we’ll see.
Cause we’re getting to the point of some of these wind turbines where we’re getting to like you’re 10 ish, 12 years, 13 years. We’re on the downhill slope and we’re having trouble seeing your 20 come to fruition.
Dan: Yeah, that makes sense. Um, all right, so last thing here on news. So Japan is going to develop offshore wind farms.
Uh, they, they want to be 30 sites in the next 10 years and they’ve, uh, adjusted some policies to make that happen. So, um, what’s your take here? What’s what’s Japan doing? It seems like they’re, they’re making big moves
Allen Hall: rather. The Fukushima nuclear. I guess I’ll call it disaster for all intensive purposes has really changed the way that Japan has thought about energy creation.
And obviously it’s going to drive them to non nucular decisions. I’m not necessarily think that’s ultimately the right solution, but it’s probably a temporary solution. Um, but they’re talking about one gigawatt per year. That’s like a billion dollars a year, like just talking about it’s roughly a billion dollars a year of investment.
That’s a lot of money, uh, to, for Japan, with relatively small company to be putting into, to wind. So they’re making a statement. And I think also when they do that, my guess is that a lot of that turbans are going to be homegrown. Makes sense, but the Japanese had done a pretty good job of making some of the wind turbines too.
So merely went out outgrowth there, their wind turbine industry by just using locally as an example, to then get to the, a wider, broader market. Right. Um, that would make sense. Some, have you seen all, a lot of European countries invest heavily into when to develop the technology and to become world leaders in it?
Why wouldn’t Japan, they obviously have the capability to do that.
Dan: Yeah. And so their new policy, their goals are, uh, three or four projects every year that will each generate a total capacity of about a gigawatt. Uh, from financial years, April, 2021 until, uh, 2030 or 2031. So yeah, that 10 gigawatt number that you mentioned.
So that’s, that’s pretty interesting. I mean, that’s yeehaw, that’s a lot. Yeah. And, and it’s a lot, right?
Allen Hall: It’s a lot, it’s a lot of investment. Well, good for them, right. Especially in this economic downturn and we want to get things rolling again. That’s a good way to do it. Pop a bunch of money into the economy and, and, uh, on the backside you got clean, renewable energy.
Dan: All right. So let’s, let’s shift gears here to our, our second half of the show. And, uh, we have a couple of things to cover. Cause you know, you’ve been talking with a bunch of customers recently. And a, a bunch of other companies and kind of dispelling some myths about specifically bonding and grounding on some of these wind turbines.
So I know one of the questions you’ve gotten recently is, uh, what is, what should bonding resistance be on a winter and blade? When’s it too high? How do we check this? I mean, this is, you know, your expertise, you know, the electrical engineering stuff. So, um, what do you, what have you got for us on, on bonding?
Allen Hall: Well, when we say bonding and grounding, what we’re doing is for measuring the resistance from. Point a to point B. And in this particular case, it hasn’t to be from the blade receptors, a lightning receptors, either back to the hub. Typically in some cases I’d like to measure it down to the, to the base of the tower where they have an unknown bonding point.
Uh, what the questions I’m getting lately are very specific of what is an acceptable bonding resistance. And I always think that’s kind of odd because one, the OEM should be defining that and have measured it before the blades in particular have left the factory. So there should be a resistance check.
Of a blade is, uh, maybe a 15 minute task and it doesn’t take any advanced skills or any sophisticated instrumentation to go do. So before each blade leaves a factory, there should be some sort of bonding check and I’d written down number you’re going to pass on until the operator of that thing. But what’s happening now, what appears to be happening is, um, there have been resistance checks done on the blade when they leave.
And then when they get out in the field, they’re different values. And over time, those are values are getting higher and higher, higher. So let’s just throw some numbers out. So say, say they measure 10 million, which is. Pretty decent resistance and it’s going to 50, a hundred million homes to one home in some cases are higher.
And the question is, what impact does that have on the lightning protection system? Well a still work and, and, well, that’s a really great question, right? And again, it all depends. It really all depends on what has gone wrong or why the resistance is changing. Not necessarily resistance is going to rise naturally because corrosion happens.
Welcome to the world. Corrosion happens in any sort of resistive joint that’s sort of, but better together or screw together is going to change over time because corrosion oxidation, all those salt, you name it, start to make the resistance rise in those joints. But from a, a larger perspective, those lightning protection systems are designed with big conductors, and that seems like those joints are fairly good sized.
So if the blade was going to get struck by lightning, it should still be going down those conductors in the, in the down conductor and through all the receptors to get to where it wants to go. And a lot of times, a small lightning struck and a large lightning strike would clean out all those high resistance and make them low.
Again, kind of arc waltz things together. So it seems to be a concern in general, between a high resistance reading. When I say high, say it’s up by a factor of 10. So we went from 10 million to a hundred milliamps and a concern where the lightning lightning protection system works. It’s it has to work unless there’s something catastrophic has happened to the blade.
Like the Don conductor has been severed to or something to become disconnected. A technician has been in there and disconnected something by accident or taken apart to work on something and connect it back up at the end, uh, because otherwise the, the pathway is still there. The cross sectional area of metal from a to B, from the receptor back to the hub is still there.
It’s just those intermediate joints, maybe a little bit high in resistance, but. Hey, some lady like me, Kurt, we’ll clear them out. It’s just like a Guinness and ground. When you carry, you know, you wash your car off and then she looks shiny. Again, same thing happens with electrical joints, very similar. And, but Dan, you know, you, you know what we’ve seen lately?
I see a lot more of lately. Obviously they’ve got measure resistance on a blade. It can be really. Time intensive. Right? You gotta climb up there. They got to have an instrument, an old meter, and you’re going to slide down the blade, click onto the receptor, click onto wherever the other end of the wires got to go.
And so it just takes a lot of time. But there’s been a couple of companies now on the drone side of it, trying to automate that, like to, to either re some sort of rope contraption or some sort of flying drone with trying to measure the resistance of the receptors. It seems like there’s been more demand of that in the last six months.
And I’ve seen in the previous five years. Have you seen that too?
Dan: Yeah.
Allen Hall: It’s increasing a lot and they’re offering that service. And I don’t know if just the operators realize don’t realize that probably not a lot to worry about, unless it gets to be like a quote unquote open circuit where things are completely disconnected, that I would worry about that.
But anything else? I’m not sure. I’m not sure the OEMC would even say in these, it would cause a problem. Um, And the weird thing is on the, I I’ve talked to a couple of OEMs about this, and I’m not sure they’ve defined it either, which is weird because on other, on automotive, in the automotive industry and the aerospace industry in, in buildings, there’s defined measures that need to be kept in place to make sure the system is working.
Probably basically just make sure something catastrophic has an to the lightener protection system and on winter turbines, we don’t. Maybe it’s just the older wind turbines. We didn’t do that on, I think the newer ones are doing a much better job of it, but some of the older ones, we just don’t seem to have any numbers, which is odd.
Dan: Yeah. Well that does definitely doesn’t seem like something on their list of, you know, you start talking about, even when they know they have damage, they don’t want to go up there and fix it because they just might not need to yet. So the idea of going of a testing resistance seems like that would never happen almost
Allen Hall: right, but I’ve, I’ve, like I said, I’ve seen more resistance measures in the COVID-19 world and I saw previous to it.
So I don’t know if it’s just, um, Good sales or marketing, or there’s some sort of industry wide problem that everybody’s responding to. Not sure that one’s settled out because I haven’t heard it has been very little written about it, which is true. Again, I get back to the winter and industry not writing about itself and, and
Dan: communicating to the industry
Allen Hall: very secretive, which is crazy because it’s not helping the industry.
Especially things like this, like bonding resistance, that’s like first semester electrical engineering. Uh, it’s not super technical. We should be able to share information on that.
Dan: Parents. We rarely not. I mean, the, you know, the, I don’t know. I just don’t it seems like a situation where any company is like, well, better safe than, sorry.
We don’t want to look like the fool. If we’re the one who decides that, Oh, it’s no big deal. And then it backfires, you know, heads within the company might have to roll stuff like that. I mean, you could see how, like the fear, the fear, what could be pervasive in a company like that, where we might as well, just err, on the side of doing what we’ve been doing and not let any, any kind of trade secrets, if you’d even call them that, get out.
Because
Allen Hall: I w yeah, I wouldn’t call bonding a trade secret. No, yeah, I wouldn’t call it just so generic. It’s like the wind turbines are, are white and color. That’s not a trade secret. The bonding resistance should be low. Yeah. Should be low. So it’s, it’s not much more difficult than that. I, I, I think that there was a generic problem.
Uh, or maybe, and maybe it’s location specific. I, the ones I worry about the most of the ones who are out on the ocean and, well, that’s hard to go out and measure those things into their body was just as, is probably going up because the salt is, is just a negative corrosive thing. What are you going to do?
Right. It’s some part of each have to live with it. I just, yeah, I guess we can talk about the secrecy. It’s crazy.
Dan: Yeah. Well, do you think it’s something that can be solved with different materials? I mean, are there any metals that, I mean, when you talk about these, these joints that are bonded, what materials are you typically.
Talking about, is it to copper,
Allen Hall: copper or stainless? Yeah. They try to make a galvanic, highly compatible. So there’ll be similar materials. Like you don’t want to see aluminum and stainless steel put together, but I’ve heard, I’ve heard of, and some wind turbines that’s actually a case. So galvanic only that that makes a battery.
That’s how batteries work is to get two different galvanic Lee opposed, uh, metals. And that creates a voltage.
Dan: Does that mean that they’re Trent they’re sending ions to each other? Is that, is that how that works or correct me
Allen Hall: if I’m wrong. Yeah. Once, once, once taking them for the other, usually aluminum, loosely aluminum, it gets eaten up in that situation.
And so it will actually eat away the aluminum and eat away at any sort of structure that it was providing slowly over time. Um, so stainless steel will try to eat aluminum copper. We’ll try to eat aluminum. So you try to find things that are closer together. Galvanic CLI. Uh, that’s the way to, to mitigate that.
The other thing I’ve seen a lot more recently, uh, in the, in the building community and just the general industry community is sort of fusion welding, where they hot weld a part a to part B boy, that’s a great electrical connection and it it’s reliable. It’s all get out. I think trains do that. So, um, where they, they just don’t want him to break.
On wind terms. That’s hard to do because you’re in this environment where things are flammable. So fusing metal together is probably not the right place for that to happen. Uh, but a good mechanical joints are not a mystery and good electrical joints are not a mystery either. They can do both of those things.
You just gotta think about. What metals are you using and keeping water and corrosion out of them. So sealing those sealing, those joints up is usually key to a very, very long lifetime.
Dan: All right, well, we’re going to wrap up today’s episode of uptime. If you’re new to the show. Welcome. If you’re a regular here, thank you for your continued support.
Please subscribe to the show and leave a review on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Don’t forget to check out the weather guard, lightening tech, YouTube channel for video episodes, full interviews and short clips from each show for Allen and all of us at weather guard. Stay safe and we’ll see you next week.
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